Dustin Heise 0:00

All right, well, I am very blessed today to get to hang out with a mutually high-energy guest and Sarah Tissant. Today's guest is co-CEO of TMJ, one of the world's leading athlete representation agencies, focused exclusively on women's football. A former executive with Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, and Wells Fargo, Sarah is also a co-owner of North Carolina Courage and Kiritaro FC, helping shape the future of sport on and off the field. So stoked to get some time with you today, Sarah. Thank you.

Sara Toussaint 0:33

Oh, likewise, Dustin. I've really been enjoying your podcast and what you've been doing.

Dustin Heise 0:38

Well, thank you. Um, it's gonna be a fun discussion. You know, you've worked across MLB, MLS, women's football, and now team ownership. What's the defining moment that made you realize sport could be so much more powerful as ways to bring people together?

Sara Toussaint 0:54

Yeah, I would say for anyone, you know, that watched the World Cup, to me, it was just so symbolic of the kind of joy that sport can bring to folks, right? You're you you want your team to win, but that cross like cultural experience, especially, you know, for folks who've made have, you know, I think about the Norway fans, I think about the Haitian fans, the Morocco fans, right? Being able to, you know, be at the stadium or in the city where their teams are playing and like share their various like chants and foods and cultures and whatnot. But I think like like my earliest memory of like bringing sport together growing up in Chicago, I'm a Southsider and gangs are a big problem or were a big problem growing up. But when the Bulls had their dynasty run back in the early 90s and then into the late 90s, that was the moment where it didn't really matter what your affiliations were. Like everybody stopped and came together to watch and cheer on the team. So that was like a really that was like the most vivid. And I was probably like maybe 11 or 12 years old at the time, and just saying, like, this is like really cool, and everybody's here rooting for the same team, despite, you know, where what their uh previous uh proclamations were.

Dustin Heise 2:08

So yeah, I'm with you. Like I don't think there's a better medium that brings humans together, and we see that on scale, en masse through Olympic, Paralympic, World Cup soccer, you name it, you know, it's the the greatest example of bringing humans together for a for a common enjoyment and like you said, joy. Of course, you know, getting to watch those error those years of the Chicago Bulls, absolute legendary. I mean, every kid, didn't matter where you're from, was a huge fan of that era. And and and you know, sport continues to point back at that dynasty, doesn't even matter the sport as just that example. But, you know, again, you've spent your career creating opportunity for athletes, you know, beyond the game. What's one partnership that you've built that reminded you that sport can change lives beyond the scoreboard?

Sara Toussaint 2:55

There's a couple examples. Well, one when I was at Wells Fargo, we sponsored Major League Soccer and part of this was yeah, this was like 2013 through 2022, but around 2019, we co-created this content series called Beyond the Stands. And it was initially about like, you know, the supporter groups in soccer, right? Which is very, you know, very much a unique culture and uh and fan base, but we switched to the players to see like what do the players care about? And we, you know, so our content series, like, okay, behind, you know, like kind of behind the scenes, and here's some, you know, a lot of a lot of athletes and brands want to talk about social impact, but this content series, we put a pretty big budget behind it. And so, like, some of the stories that we told were players traveling to the country of Jordan to be able to provide soccer equipment to refugees that were there that come from other countries. And, you know, yeah, you see that. That's not unusual donating cleats or soccer equipment, but like, you know, for it to be not just, you know, what you typically see in that part of the region, being able to bring like sports hijabis, right? So the girls could play too, right? Those are sometimes things that are overlooked. And so, like, that's one example, another example of there was another ML's player who's from Ghana, and he wanted to support orphanage and sure, you know, like you think, oh, you know, these these poor kids, they don't have families, whatever. But like for him, the biggest thing was for them to get to school. And so you through this content series, we were able to put the spotlight on the lack of transportation for these orphanages in in Ghana. And aside from donating a little bit of money, like as a result of like showing, like, hey, if these kids could get to school, like that would be huge and like life-changing. I think they were able to raise like $20,000 after the episode aired so they could buy school buses for hundreds of kids to get to school, right? So, like that was really amazing and felt like this was not just like a one-off, you know, like we're gonna paint a new locker room, right? It this was like very tangible.

Dustin Heise 4:51

I love that tangibility, but also the spirit of it because that is changing lives. And that was early on in you know, those social media terms, and you know, be able to leverage it to the way that brands can leverage it now. Those are early days and examples. And you know, what more do we want to do than exactly that in changing people's lives through sport? Doesn't matter the sports, whatever can make the biggest difference and impact for human beings. You know, as you know, I work in winter sport, and you know, that's less accessible to some parts of the world. But the impact that, you know, that we intend to have, you know, in people's lives where that is a bigger part, that they don't get access to sport or you know, through winter, I couldn't agree more that that's that's what it's all about. Now there's all sorts of the business components and the high performance components that are baked into that, but if that's the impact that we get to have, there's nothing more meaningful than than that, and in in my opinion, and think we're pretty aligned on that.

Sara Toussaint 5:47

Yeah. No, yeah.

Dustin Heise 5:48

I think that you know, women's sport is experiencing incredible momentum right now. And and you talked about some of the access, what needs to happen over the next decade to make sure it isn't just a movement, but it's it's a lasting movement. I know I've got two daughters, I want to see them continue to have access to to sport. I'm just using that as an example to to lean in on, but what can we do to make sure that this is more than a movement?

Sara Toussaint 6:11

Yeah. I I mean, to me, the most basic thing, and I don't know what the stats are in Canada, but in the US, and I would imagine countries globally, right? It's media attention. Like, so whatever, like there's still this power of a TV screen or broadcasting, right? Like watching sports on television that's still captivating and powerful. And I think there's still a lot left to be done in the media landscape around broadcasting women's sports. So just a couple years ago, the stat was only 4% of women's sports is shown in on uh at least US television. Now in the last couple of years, I think it's up to 16%, maybe 15%, something like that. So like that's a huge piece of it. It's like whatever, I mean, like, think about some of the silly things that are broadcasted and the attention that just I think are, you know, uh just silly people, you know, like getting so much attention and fame and opportunities, and like these women who are brilliant, a lot of them, you know, many very, you know, super intelligent, aren't getting that same visibility. So I at the basic level, it's that broadcasting piece, and then and then after that, it's definitely the the marketing investment from, you know, for sure from sponsors, right? That there is, you know, the reason why there are there's partnership marketing is so that you we have this, you know, kind of one-in-one makes three with respect to we're gonna show our audience, we're gonna tell our audience about you, you're gonna tell your audience audience about us, and like grow this, you know, this visibility even bigger. And then still at clubs and league levels too, I think on the women's side, still need to do more marketing, and a lot of that does go back to like just the investment. So I think there's still clubs and leagues that aren't pushing themselves further, and you know, that's because there's a lack of of those marketing dollars across the board, whether it's from brands or investors, but I think those are the two big things that has to, you know, maintain. I think and you know that lends itself to kind of integration of like pop culture moments as well.

Dustin Heise 8:12

So who's doing it phenomenally well? Who's an example and then we can continue to perpetuate that or or who needs to double down on someone that's doing it exceptionally well right now?

Sara Toussaint 8:25

From a media standpoint, what's interesting is in at least in the US and Mexico, we're seeing Televisa Emisión, which is a Spanish broadcaster, say we're gonna we're gonna start broadcasting more, and like intentionally have said we're gonna broadcast more around women's sports, uh specifically women's soccer. So they're just getting started, but the fact that they're like they're actually like being the drum on that is really good. ESPN here in the US launched their I think their women's sports Sundays um this summer, and I think that's they're testing out and marketing it as such, which um and putting it women's sports on primetime, but there's you know there's still a lot to go from a brand standpoint. Ally Bank here in the US is like the gold standard right now. A couple years ago they they committed to their advertising budget being equally you know geared towards men and women, sports. I think from a from a league, I think unrivaled the women's basketball league is doing a great job in marketing themselves and making sure they're showing up in different ways and using the players to do that. So I think their marketing is exciting, exceptional, right? So I think they're doing it really super cool. Yeah.

Dustin Heise 9:30

So anyway, that's those are super examples. And and then and the goal is just like for people to to in these brilliant minds that that listen and are gonna be way smarter than me, that's for sure. Just hearing, you know, a voice that like like well, like yours that is an expert in the space, they can then perpetuate that. They can become the next gold standard as as you know they double down on on what's working well, and you know, again, the the power of the tools that are gonna be available to people soon sooner than than than ever. It's very exciting on the potential. Now I know you've made the jump from established organizations to startups and ownership. What leap felt the riskiest and how did it change the way you lead today?

Sara Toussaint 10:12

The riskiest was leaving major league soccer, which was still growing at the at the time it was maybe 10 years old, but growing to even you know, nascent league and national lacrosse league, which I know look, you know, indoor lacrosse is really big in Canada. But that was it was a startup lacrosse team in Boston during the 2008 recession, right? So you've already got like this, you know, you got the financial, you know, yeah, head headwinds. You've got Boston being a very, in my opinion, very closed to new sports type of community. But I think, you know, in terms of like, you know, how did it change how I lead or how I kind of conduct myself is nobody really was picking up the phone when I was calling and responding to emails and messages. And I I remember just having a hard time, and I was tasked to find sponsorship for this new club. And I just remember how like horrible it was like to not be successful, quite frankly. I felt like I was failing, I wasn't getting deals, I wasn't getting responses, nothing. And I just remember saying to myself, like, if I'm ever on the other end of this conversation, I will always reply to people. I was even if it's a no, I'm always gonna respond to you, especially if I know you put the work in. Like, and so I tried, I may be slow, but that's kind of something I've committed to since 2008. Uh 2009. Yeah, yeah, 2009. Was after that experience, I said, if anybody ever reaches out to me and I know it's an you know an earnest conversation, they've done their homework, and it's not like a spam call, right?

Dustin Heise 11:44

Because there's some people who I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah, it's pretty it's it's beautiful.

Sara Toussaint 11:48

Yeah, and have like zero like relevance to like what I'm doing or what my company's doing. Like I'm always gonna respond. So that was my takeaway there. Was even if it's a no, I'm gonna say no. And if I have a, you know, and I'll I'll have a why as well.

Dustin Heise 12:00

So those are well, I think it's your your ability to grind and resilience and and being able to come back with the mental game. And that again, it speaks to your high energy too. It's like you're always gonna keep coming back, you know. Like I feel the same way because you know, as you've as you've had to come through difficulty, you've had to scale, you've created opportunity, like that self-talk and that ability to keep making sure that you still show up and you still keep grinding. What did you gravitate to to make sure that you could keep showing up and getting through that that period?

Sara Toussaint 12:29

Part of it was, you know, just personal ego as a you know, I think I'm laid back, but I'm really like type A, and I've always had good grades, and I just I'm like, I I need to figure out a way to deliver against it, even though I knew it was gonna be tough. And quite frankly, in some ways I did, in other ways I didn't, you know, and I I can point, I can make excuses like nobody was spending, marketing budgets were getting cut. So I would I was like, okay, well, I don't know if I'm gonna reach reach these cash goals, but can I offset the PL with as much trade, right? In kind of resources as possible. And so that was a shift. So, you know, I look back and I was like, man, that was a really tough year. That was really, really, really tough.

Dustin Heise 13:06

But sounds like growth, personal growth. Yeah, I feel for real. Like, I hear you. Yeah, I know it's those are neat periods in life. It's not all linear, it's not all that direction that that we, you know, plan it to be, but uh, it doesn't always go that way. That's no, it doesn't.

Sara Toussaint 13:24

And I like to plan, I really do. So it's like, oh my God, what the heck do I do now? Um there was a lot of that.

Dustin Heise 13:31

Now, I I know you've said, you know, relationships are long game. You know, what's one relationship that completely changed the direction of your career? And what did you do to earn that trust?

Sara Toussaint 13:41

For me, I've been super lucky in my career to have like wonderful people like across the board. And I've been working for 25 years, over 25 years now, but there's one person in particular who was my manager at Wells Fargo's name's Nick Carey, and he hired me because at the time they had just signed Major League Soccer and the Mexican national team to their sponsorship portfolio. So I knew so he knew I knew the work, right? Um, but what was different there is like this massive organization with a quarter of a million employees and you know, hundreds of different departments, and getting anything done was really tough because of the bureaucra, you know, the bureaucratic layers. And so, you know, I think how I built trust with him was to not take shortcuts, right? Because you're when everything's like that painful, you're just like, how do I get to what I need to get to? But it was really like developing relationships internally and like having people be excited about the work I was doing and want to be a part of it, I think was a big piece of it. And being able to get like push things done like through that hadn't been done before. Cause you know, also when you work at a big brand, especially at a bank which is not used to trying different things, like that's like scary, right? Like I'm asking for signage that doesn't fit the parameters of the brand of the brand team. And I'm like, we can't use this size, it's not gonna show up on a field board or a giant screen. Like we have to go bigger, right? And like explain to them. But you know, it was through all kind of like the relationship building there and the you know, people being able to see that their work actually looked pretty good. Like I helped them make look, you know, help make them look good. Like he encouraged me to try new things, and and again, it's you know, a bank is a pretty conservative place, and so he'd always say, All right, you know, what do you got? And I would always come to him with like the worst case scenario looks like this. And if this is what we spend money on and this is the worst outcome, I still think it's better than that, you know? And so being able to come with him or come to him with kind of like this is the worst thing that can go wrong, and it's still pretty good, like, you know, so I I think that really um it really built that trust with with Nick for sure.

Dustin Heise 15:45

What a blessing to have people in your lives that give you that chance and that shot too, right? And then, you know, and to learn along the way. You'll have had some things that you you for sure hit home runs on and some you know singles in there too. And so, you know, it's just so nice when someone has your back to grow it together because you were mutually teaching each other how to be successful.

Sara Toussaint 16:04

It really is everything, uh you know, and just building my confidence that way. And yeah, I'm super lucky and still, you know, we haven't worked together in four years, but that's still somebody I talk to regularly and check in and it that psychological safety at work. Like it's okay to fail as long as you're like, can you anticipate what that failure could look like, you know, and how do you mitigate it? And so if it doesn't work out, like this is the worst case, you know.

Dustin Heise 16:28

For sure. As I think about the fans from different cultures, countries, and backgrounds and how they rally behind the same team. We talked about this a little earlier on the with the World Cup. Would you think sport teaches us that business alone just never could?

Sara Toussaint 16:43

Yeah. I mean, I think you said it right there. It's like as a fan, that's the one and only role you have is to support your team. Like that's it. And you know, that you show up and you put on the jersey and you buy the what right? Like you are there and you know what to do. I think in business we're so focused on what your manager wants from you or what the department leader wants for you, which is like usually a bunch of different things. And it's really like easy to lose sight of like the bigger goal or the bigger, you know, usually if you're especially a consumer company, like it's it's like, all right, what is what are we doing for the consumer and like let that be your driving force? But it's really easy to get caught up in like the metrics of that and the processes of that, and so you focus on like all these other things and you kind of lose sight of like that sometimes that one job you really do have, which is to, you know, how do you best serve the customer and like let that be the guide to what you really need to do. But sometimes it really is that simple.

Dustin Heise 17:42

It kind of is, and we definitely overcomplicate it, and and that's natural because of course it is complex. Um, but at the same time, you're dead right, you know, it's about how do we best serve the customer and understanding, no matter your role, who the customer in fact is. And, you know, for me with my CEO hat, well, that's in fact my board. I've got other customers that are within our purview, but you know, that's the direct customer. I got to make sure that we've served them and they're, you know, the the voting membership that's that's wanted them to be there representing that that group, understanding that, you know, the the needs. So the complexity comes behind, you know, the very broad stakeholder base, but understanding the customer. And I know that you know exactly what that means in the context of wherever you're at within the the organization or ownership or whatever it is, you know, you've all got customers that that you're serving.

Sara Toussaint 18:35

Yeah. It's pretty cool.

Dustin Heise 18:37

Now, you know, one of the things that I want to kind of transition to is a little more forward-looking. In one year's time for you, Sarah, what do you see as a defining moment that you know you'll be able to look back on and know that you've you've done some of the things you wanted to do over the course of this next year? And then, same thing, five-year time horizon in five years, you know, what's you know, some defining moments that that you'll have wanted to see for yourself and the the organizations and teams that you uh you're a part of and own.

Sara Toussaint 19:10

Right now, because we're less than a year out for the Women's World Cup. Um in the and the talent that repr we represent. Like my I think for me, I would love to make inroads with brands and media in out basically outside of North America. And what I mean by that, it's like how, you know, we represent talent from 40 different 40 different countries, and the majority do not invest in the women's game, in you know, whether it's as a fan base, as a media broadcaster, as a brand, you right, like a marketer that can invest there. And so I would love if this next year, you know, we are making inroads and having these kind of three like really important players, you know, really pay attention to the women's game. And then long term in 20, you know, 2031, it's like five years from now, which is another World Cup women's World Cup year, this time it's supposed to be in North America as well. Again, the US is supposed to have it, Mexico, Costa Rica, and Jamaica. I don't think Canada was part of the bid, but what I would love to see hopefully happen in the women's game. I want, you know, I think the the seeds will be there next year, but by 2031, having people in this part of the world like know who players are across, you know, across the the ocean, right? And it's not just the same old same, like it's not just, you know, David Beckham. Like we, I would love for people to know Rachel Kunananji, who plays for Zambia, or you know, some folks already know Jennifer Moso who plays for Spain, Michelle Alozia, who plays for Nigeria. Like that would be amazing if, especially in the side of the world, people know players, women's soccer players besides the US national team. You know, like that's that's the goal.

Dustin Heise 21:01

I'm stoked to see you deliver that unlock over the next year and five years. You're gonna be a big part of that. I hope so. I hope so. Oh, for sure. And it's critical that we do have leaders like you doing that because all of women's sport needs that. And, you know, soccer is a huge component and and player that's incredibly relevant to make sure that all other sports can follow in those footsteps. And, you know, we're seeing that happen in real time now, but it takes people that have the expertise, the connections, and the you know, the ability to to help brands understand what is possible so that it gets in front of the faces of of us as consumers and you know, just the uh the opportunity these these young future superstars have. So it's gonna be really cool to see that. Sarah, I can't thank you enough for your time today. Always good conversation, and and we'll do this again with the same kind of energy. It's awesome.

Sara Toussaint 21:57

What a treat, Dustin. This was really wonderful. Thank you so much.

Dustin Heise 22:01

My pleasure. Thank you.