Dustin Heise 0:00

Well, it's so good to get some time together with Madison Richardson. So excited to get to ask some amazing questions to an amazing young athlete who is embarking on a really, really cool journey. And to get time with you in this very high and intense period of your training phase and things of that nature, we're really grateful. Today's guest is Madison Richardson, professional climber, Canadian national team athlete, and chair of Climbing Escalade Canada's Athletes Commission. As one of Canada's top bouldering athletes, she's not only competing on the world stage, but also helping shape the future of climbing through athlete leadership, coaching, and community building. Welcome, Madison. Good to have you here.

Madison Richardson 0:39

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Dustin Heise 0:40

Yeah, well, it's not always easy to fit in podcasting and putting up content and also, you know, leading within the community that you're such a critical part of as a high performance athlete. You know, you've spent years competing at the highest level of climbing. What was the defining moment that made you realize that this sport in particular would become some of your life's work?

Madison Richardson 1:02

Yeah, I mean, I'll say when I first started, I never had any intention of giving up. Like I, it wasn't something that I was just kind of doing on the side, and I always knew I was gonna, you know, deviate and let go of it at some point. I was always determined to see just how far I could go with it. But I think it was actually around COVID when we didn't have any uh events. And I spent that time training pretty hard for it because there wasn't anything else going on for me at that point. I just finished high school and I was taking some gap years anyway. So I did have access to most of a gym at that point. And yeah, I spent those like year and a half just thinking nonstop about getting back to those World Cups. And I'd never really performed well at them before, but I was just feeling really motivated. And I like every day it was just on my mind. And then the very first event after COVID was my the personal best event. It was at the World Championships, randomly, like right back into world championship, it was kind of crazy. But it was a top 25 result for me, which I'd never have before. And then I followed it up that the next April, which is just four or five months later, with uh ninth place, which was uh insane for me. So that was those two events I think were the ones that really taught me that I I really had what it takes. And um, yeah, like it just proved that yeah, you you stick your your mind on something for a year and a half, and it really can happen if you're that dedicated to it and you just know it can happen.

Dustin Heise 2:29

I love hearing about from vision to making it real and then all the perseverance and hard work that goes on in between. And I loved your tie-in back to COVID and just how challenging that was for so many human beings at that time. But you know, climbing is often looked at as an individual sport, yet the community around it is incredible. And do you mind just sharing a little bit about, you know, how you saw this sport and this activity as something that could bring people together?

Madison Richardson 2:59

Yeah, my favorite part, I think, growing up in climbing. And I started when I was 11, so I wasn't super young compared to most standards, I think, today. But yeah, in my teen years, of course, the camaraderie, like I felt like I had like two distinct friend groups. You know, you got your school friends and you got your climbing friends. And, you know, school friends are very dependent on school, but climbing because it's such a deep part of everyone's life, those friends almost felt like the core friend group. And yeah, like you're definitely alone on the wall, especially when you're competing. You don't even get a coach to help you when you're in the competition area. But when you're having a training session, you are just with people and you're all working on the same thing. Even like male, female, like we're all sort of we can be on the same boulders, which is pretty incredible. So your friend group, your your comrades end up being like a mix of like young girls, older boys, like everyone can kind of be at the same level at some point. So it's so social. Like I think all of my like best friends that that I still have to this day are just they're all climbers. Like I don't have any non-climber friends at this point.

Dustin Heise 4:03

Well, for sure. And I mean, everyone's cheering for everyone to overcome that next maneuver, that next move, something that is new for you, something that is so far away for some, and some moves that you know others they've had some time ago, but they knew what it took to get there too. And I love that about sport in general. It's it's it's quite similar, believe it or not, in in, you know, skateboarding, surfing, snowboarding, where yes, also individual sports, but you're cheering for everybody to get to their next level and be their very best. You wear so many hats. You're a professional athlete, you're a board member, you're a coach, content creator. How has each role helped you evolve in the way that you grow as a leader?

Madison Richardson 4:44

Yeah, I mean, definitely I didn't realize what was about to happen. You know, when I'm embarking on the board, um, even just getting to a higher level of athlete, I was not prepared, I think, for what that was going to teach me personally. I always saw them as sort of like stepping stones to maybe a different opportunity or something. But I think it it really was just about the personal development that came from each specific role. But if we kind of go by them like one by one, the athlete side for sure, like being a leader, you know, when I first started competing, I was not the leader, right? I was like the small fish in the big sea, and I was looking up to those older athletes on the national team. And then I think as you start performing, as you start like kind of progressing in your athletic career, everything starts compounding, you know, the pressure, the money, the grants, you know, that kind of selection pressure. And then I think also the pressure to be a leader. And so that was sort of like thrust upon me. And I didn't realize it was happening until I was right in the middle of it. And I looked around and I was like, I'm the oldest one here. I've been on the team the longest. And it's sort of a weird feeling because I I sort of miss having someone else to look up to and, you know, be accountable and to, but yeah, once you realize you're that person, it definitely shifts how you see or how you conduct yourself, I think, just day to day, how you interact with the other athletes and how you also want the other athletes on the team to feel, you know, knowing that you were just that little fish, scared at your very first World Cup and it was a crazy world and you're stepping into something big. I definitely want those athletes to feel the way I felt, where you have these older athletes that are just holding your hand through it and helping you through that process. But yeah, like every rule is different. I think on the board, the perspective is not now only about the athletes. Like, yes, I am the athlete commission chair, and that's why I have that role. But yeah, as I'm sitting on the board, I'm now thinking about everyone else in our climbing community, like the root setters and the officials and you know, the gym owners. And so you start having to take all of their perspectives into account when we're making decisions. Of course, the athletes are in the back of my mind for everything we talk about. But yeah, I'm I'm starting to have a like a very broad perspective of the community. And then I think too, when I go to events, now it's not just the athletes coming up and talking to me. It's also gym owners and technical officials that know I'm on the board and you know, know that I've got a little bit of that influence and perspective that they want to share their perspectives with me as well. So that's it's a really interesting way to also understand and and explore the entire community. At this point, I feel like I know everyone. Like I feel like touch bases everywhere for sure.

Dustin Heise 7:23

I think that that's such a great example for you know athlete leadership and the perspective that you share that you've clearly taken on and are able to empathize and then understand how that can help steer the ship and how you contribute against each of the pillars of the organization. And then, you know, I know it's not easy as well for you know anyone to be an active, high performance athlete having to wear some of those hats as well. So I just want to make sure that you know, like from all of sport, how grateful sport leaders are to have athletes that are doing what you're doing and know how critical that is. And and you know, we're fortunate and so grateful to the athletes, same with our in our athlete council, similarly, that are active athletes. It's a heavy load for sure. And then I loved how you shared earlier around you know, each of the generations of athletes from those that are coming in and how you can mentor those and how you were mentored along the way. I think one of the things that you have talked about or have shared recently, especially around tying self-worth to results as opposed to some of the process and appreciating that. Do you mind just sharing a little bit how you're continuing to conquer and overcome that and how you'd share that with, you know, those that are coming up and as you mentor others?

Madison Richardson 8:38

Yeah, well, like as I said, you know, as you start just keep going through your career, you realize at a certain point everything is starting to feel heavier. And uh so I've recently started working with a mental performance coach, which we talk about all the time, you know, don't think about the past and you know, if you wish it, you know, it doesn't matter. Of course, I wish I did this earlier, of course. You know, I'm I'm quite a ways into my career now and I'm seeing the value of it. But something we talk about a lot, especially, you know, this season, as I was speaking with her around the good events and the bad, we debrief every single one. And there were some, you know, obviously, you know, not as good of events this year, which happens all the time. But this year I finally had the opportunity to talk to a mental performance coach about it. And I realized that, yeah, I'm starting to notice that I'm putting my worth in this sport on how well I perform. Like, of course, as I step into the role of like athlete leader and of being on the chair and just having this sort of reputation, I guess, in the community at this point, every bad result is starting to feel a little bit more significant than it used to. So I think it was important for me to foremost identify it because I just didn't realize it was there. It was sort of lurking in the background and I definitely felt pressure to perform, but I never identified it as wow, I'm actually tying my self-worth in this sport to how high the placement is.

unknown 9:59

Right.

Madison Richardson 10:00

I'm still working through it. There, like it's it doesn't happen overnight.

Dustin Heise 10:03

Always just because I found I can share for sure. It's always yeah.

Madison Richardson 10:10

But yeah, so it's gonna take quite a few more more practice to to separate those a little bit more and just understand that my role as athlete commission, I wasn't elected because I'm like the best athlete in the in the sport, right? I I did it because uh of different reasons. I'm trying to just be a leader and help the other athletes that are coming after me have a better opportunities when they're on our national team. We're a very low-funded sport around Canada. So it's a big struggle that I um was the main reason I joined. Sure. We just, you know, of the few resources we have, I think it's important to use them as wisely as possible. And sometimes when you don't have a strong kind of athlete voice there, it's hard for everyone to balance that need against the others. So yeah, like it all kind of ties back to, yeah, there's different reasons I'm in different roles. And I was starting to conflate all of my roles with my results. And I felt like everything was a little bit like unless justified or or, you know, whatever it is when my results aren't as high. So that was uh something to work through. And it also just makes me perform worse when I have this like weight on my shoulders. So definitely I'll be, I'll be thinking a lot more about this. And I think journaling helps smooth that. I like to journal in public, so I've got a blog that I use for this. So I felt I find that helps me work through these kind of ideas a bit better.

Dustin Heise 11:29

I think the leadership and the articulation that you have, you know, you're way ahead of your years. There's no question about that. And just your your natural willingness to put yourself out there to be a leader, that's not easy in the first place. You know, one of the things that you shared was in around why you did it to make sure that athletes don't necessarily have to go through the same challenges or struggles that you did. What do you hope for the athletes of the future that, you know, here in Canada that they don't have to overcome, that it is, you know, there's a clearer pathway or more opportunity for them that that you've fought for along the way here?

Madison Richardson 12:05

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, money, right, is the first thing I think of. Of course.

Dustin Heise 12:11

No question, resource, like it is top, absolutely top.

Madison Richardson 12:14

Yeah. Well, it's interesting actually. We've kind of had an ed and flow of like funding in our sport because, you know, COVID happened and then, you know, it's kind of gone up and down. It hasn't just been like a flat line. So it also it almost seems like in the years where we've had less funding, our athletes have been more reliant on each other. And we've sort of built like this kind of shared camaraderie around our situation. And on the one hand, of course, that's sort of a good thing. It unified us for a second there. It still unified us. I think it's definitely endured through our sp our unique situation in uh in sport. But at the same time, we don't want that, you know, like we want a little bit of like healthy competitiveness. We don't want our athletes to be sharing sort of a collective commiseration, you know, over this kind of thing. And I, you know, as an athlete commission chair, I don't have direct, I can't really control what sponsors we get or don't get or how much funding flows our way. But what I I can do is make sure that when there is resources to be, you know, put around, I'm making sure that that voice, especially like from the conversations I have with other athletes, not just in the commission, but you know, trying to talk to everyone on our national team, understanding what the unique needs are and what the most important thing we can do with our money is. And it's not often like the bright and shiny thing that we're hoping for, like, you know, paying for all our flights or 100% accommodation. Sometimes it's it there is something more important that we should actually be focusing on to help the development of our athletes. So sometimes it's maybe not even what our athletes think it is, but it's it's sort of um understanding what everyone else's situation is and what everyone is sort of needing in different ways. It's definitely an ongoing effort. Like uh I'm not sure that and never-ending medicine. Yeah. It's it's tough, of course.

Dustin Heise 14:04

In absolutely every sport.

Madison Richardson 14:05

Yeah. Well, that's what I'm learning too, like going to like some of the COC AGMs and talking with other athletes from other sports.

Dustin Heise 14:11

Absolutely.

Madison Richardson 14:12

Yeah, I'm starting to realize we aren't alone. Like maybe we're we have a little less money than other athletes and other sports, but it is definitely something that we all have in common. It's sort of unifying us across disciplines and across sports. But yeah, I think I'm I'm I'm mainly just kind of fighting for the attention of the board and the attention of our, you know, the higher ups to make sure that they fully understand what we need when they aren't athletes themselves and they're not in our shoes and they don't understand our unique sport and the unique, you know, locations we have to go to and our schedule and all that sort of stuff. So it's it's definitely about being the loudest voice on the board, I have to say. It's more about me just raising my hand for everything and just making sure that voice is just in every ear at basically every conversation.

Dustin Heise 14:59

I'm with you. The work that you're doing on both sides is so critical because the communication, which allows for the perspective and understanding with all the hats that not only you wear, but even the board members and your your fellow athletes are wearing, it then clear clarifies the priorities that are most urgent. So then the board and the governance can understand with the sense of urgency that's required on how to delegate what resources can go to what. And I have no doubt that you're doing that in such a thoughtful way. And you know, setting the example within your sport, but a very good example of what it ought to look like, you know, in in any sport, by the way. And I have no doubt, you know, within our commission as an example, it's it's very similar, and I know that, and such a great example for others to learn, like, oh yeah, that is what's like in ours as well. So we're we're all in the same place. And it's so great for you to be able to share that publicly where we're all growing and learning together, no matter the hat that we wear together. You've done some really good work in sharing again, also publicly on Richardson's climbing, for example, you know, why it's important for athletes to share both the victories as well as the challenges and struggles. Do you mind just sharing a little bit about that? And you'd mentioned journaling earlier, but you know, just maybe share the value in that that that may be inspiration for other athletes.

Madison Richardson 16:14

Yeah, so I realize, you know, as I'm talking to so many different community members, and not just members of Climbing Canada, but also, you know, people that just go to climbing gyms, because I'm in climbing gyms all the time. A lot of them have very they just don't understand really what's going on. They assume lots of things, like they assume we're being paid a lot or we're being all everything being covered. And, you know, I think part of the way to help our situation, I think, is to definitely raise awareness of what the reality is because, you know, something we struggle with in Climate Canada is our membership base, like how many people are actually members of Climate Canada or have participated in one of our events or, you know, in any way, shape, or form donate to our organization. So when the knowledge of like our athletes' hard work, first and foremost, but also like, you know, how much we're sacrificing to go to events, when that is misconstrued or or just not just not public, I think it it does create a bit of a roadblock for community members to really engage with Climbing Canada. So, like on my YouTube channel, I like to be fairly transparent, well, with what I'm doing day to day. So I've got lots of videos that show my actual training program. It's not just some sort of, you know, like cut and paste like vlog that, you know, just looks fun and I'm just having fun all the time. Sometimes I do talk about events. I like to debrief every single event I go to, good or bad. So there were some videos this year that I was like not psyched to, you know, step in front of the camera and talk about. But I do it anyway because I think it helps the community to really understand the emotional roller coaster that is competing, but also to give me accountability to really just understand and debrief these events that maybe I don't want to debrief. But yeah, I think it also just people tend to also resonate with struggle a little bit. And there's tons of that, even though maybe it looks like success after success. You know, I'm at the World Cups, I'm I'm living the dream, but in many ways I am.

Dustin Heise 18:11

Sure.

Madison Richardson 18:12

But there's yeah, it's a very difficult undertaking and it takes everything that I have to do it. So I think, yeah, like sharing that on my blog on YouTube, the good and the bad, I think helps round out the picture of what uh it is I'm doing and you know, whether you're interested in following that journey and, you know, maybe contributing to Climbing Canada or getting involved in the sport or getting more excited when you see your fellow national team athletes competing and taking the stage. People now know what that actually means for all disciplines in our sport and I think by extension, other sports as well.

Dustin Heise 18:46

Well, I think you're just a tremendous example of a leader in sport and have shared the entire pathway of what it takes to be a high performance athlete and the journey of that to a leader in sport and leading sport organizations and the infrastructure that's there, as well as just now your willingness to to ongoingly share and educate. By the way, it's it's an impact far beyond just climbing Madison. You can be really proud of that and you know, certainly proud of what you're doing on behalf of the climbing community. But you know, in in chats like this, like you know, I learned so much from you. Yes, I'm in different sports. I love climbing, by the way. But I think it's incredible how you're continuing to to want to make a mark and and make a difference in people's lives and have an impact. So kudos to you and thanks so much for doing that.

Madison Richardson 19:33

I appreciate that.

Dustin Heise 19:34

I'm gonna move into the you know, the defining moments. In one year, where would you see Madison Richardson? You know, if you're continuing to to drive and push yourself to where you know you're capable of when you reflect in one year's time, what do you hope to see yourself and where do you see yourself? And you know I'm gonna mirror the same question for more of a five-year landscape.

Madison Richardson 19:57

Yeah, so this is gonna be my first year trying for the Olympics.

Dustin Heise 20:00

Amazing.

Madison Richardson 20:01

Climbing is a new sport in the Olympics, and uh, we've kind of had changes for every edition. So I've never tried to participate because I'm a boulder-only athlete. That's my specialty. And we've never had an Olympics where each discipline is separate as a separate medal category. So when they announced that Boulder is on its own for 2028, I was like, okay, this is the year to go for it. It's pretty cutthroat in climbing this year because we have a very, very small quota of athletes able to even attend the Olympics. It's only 12 across the world. So it's very, very small margin for error. But when I think about, you know, what am I gonna be reflecting on a year from now, I'm thinking that the uh Pan American championships are going to be, I think, almost exactly one year from today, or I should say the Pan American Games. So that's gonna be the very first Olympic qualifying event. And uh I have to say, in women's bouldering specifically, it's extremely competitive. We've got quite a few athletes that are up there in the world rankings. And I've been wrestling with the idea of going there because it's on the one hand, it's probably my my best shot because it's like a smaller field, and then you know, the the winner gets to go to the Olympics. So it's like a it's like a big thing. And I'm definitely trying to wrap my head around believing in myself for that event because I know my field in particular is pretty stacked. So yeah, I think a defining moment will be what happens at that event. And of course, I don't know what the result is gonna be. I don't wanna, I don't wanna You don't need forecasts. Yeah. But I at the same time, I think it I'm starting to focus a lot more on what's going on in my head. And uh working with my mental performance coach has been a big impact on that. And I think I'd love to go to that event and and feel as confident as I do at a Canadian national, you know, like knowing, not not thinking I'm gonna do it or win or, you know, not having that specifically on my mind, but more like the absolute confidence and trust in my training and be able to go to that event and give it my all and see how if I can surprise myself really and uh not kind of take the opportunity away before because like as I'm sitting here right now, I'm thinking it's gonna be a tough one. I don't know about it. Like it might not be the best shot. Maybe I should aim for something else. But I think I'm going. Like I'm definitely going. Like uh it's it's in the calendar. So I I'm definitely gonna spend this next year trying to shift that mindset and uh see how like how much of an athlete I I really am and I can really like push through that mental barrier.

Dustin Heise 22:27

I cannot wait to chat with you any year from now, heading into that event and how you would answer that same question, by the way. I have zero doubt how how much that's about to evolve.

Madison Richardson 22:37

Yeah, I mean I got a lot of work to put on it.

Dustin Heise 22:40

Very stoked for you. That's gonna be really fun part of your journey. Thanks for that. Okay, five years' time. Can you think that far down? And I know so much happens in five years nowadays, but just give it a shot.

Madison Richardson 22:51

Yeah. So I mean, climbing evolves every year. It feels like the sport is actually changing and the things I was training five years ago are no longer relevant to what I see at events this year. So it's it's a challenging sport in that respect. Because you five years from now, I don't know what the landscape is gonna look like. Are they gonna have a completely different set of holds? Are the root setters gonna be pushing us more towards parkour or are we gonna go back to like old school stuff? So I think something I've been focusing on and realizing more and more as I'm getting older and I now have this longer kind of history to look at, I'm noticing that keeping up with the sports evolution is more important than anything else. As an older athlete, it's something I have to focus on more because I'm not starting while it's still in this sort of like parkour dynamic state. I started a long time ago and I was forced to evolve to where I am now. And I definitely am very cognizant that if I don't keep evolving, if my training doesn't keep evolving, I will I will start falling behind. I will start not really recognizing the sport anymore. So that's something that definitely daunts me when I think about it because I like the way I train now. I like the sport as it is today. And I wish it would stay like this, but I know it won't. And I think, you know, I care a lot about just being, just continuing to, to do this sport and to travel and to be part of the team that I love. So I have to keep evolving and it's gonna take a lot more creativity and I'm gonna have to stay sharp with it and not be discouraged when I'm training things that maybe aren't gonna be part of my season, but I have to just keep trying to follow the trends and see what's gonna happen. So yeah, five years from now, I'm hoping that I'll still be relevant and I'll still like understand the sport and be able to participate it in the at the extent that I hope I can.

Dustin Heise 24:39

Stellar response, by the way.

Madison Richardson 24:42

Thank you.